Bernard Bouwman, a Western correspondent living and reporting in İstanbul, is the eyes and ears of the Netherlands in Turkey. Indeed, his is a name synonymous with Turkey. He has been reporting for the Netherlands’ NRC Handelsblad daily and for Radio 1 from İstanbul for eight years. I recently spoke with Bouwman about his personal adventure and observations about Turkey and the Netherlands.
How did your İstanbul adventure begin?
Let me start by saying that I did not have a journalistic education. I studied something different, finished my doctorate at Oxford and returned to Holland. While looking for jobs, I ended up in journalism. I was at the European Integration Desk at NRC, for whom I still work. But almost everyone in the media was dealing with bureaucracy, which eventually started to bother me. I told my superiors: “Look! I do not want to do be a correspondent anymore. I will look for something else.” Just then, in 2000, a post in İstanbul became available and, of course, I jumped on it. Why? Because Turkey was quite an interesting country; a journalistic heaven with its dynamic agenda, including Turkey-EU relations; the democratization process; the place of religion in society and the question of where it should be; the ethnic groups and how these groups should be integrated into the mainstream; natural disasters; and Turkey’s relations with its turbulent neighbours, like Iran, Iraq and Syria. Simply, whatever a journalist wants!
But you had been to Turkey before you had been stationed here, right?
Sure, I had been as a tourist, a few times. But living permanently was something different. But, you know what? My boss sent me to İstanbul for one week, saying “You are free to do anything you want, don’t bother with the expenses and just see if you could live there.” It was really an excellent week. But newspapers can’t do such things anymore, as circulations in the Netherlands have decreased. Well, at the end of that week, I made up my mind. İstanbul was the place where I wanted to live.
When you look back, do you see any changes on the issues that you said brought you here?
Well, there is one thing that never changes: Turkey’s rapid change on economic and social issues. This is taking place at an amazing speed. And just at this point I would like to share one of my observations. Look, I do not share the concerns of some ultra-secular circles about Turkey becoming an Islamic state day by day. On the contrary, I believe that religious people have started to lead a more liberal and relaxed life and that in 10-15 years time they will become like Europeans!
How did you come to this conclusion?
Well, there are two things that lead societies to secularism. Of course, I mean secularism in the way we are used to in Europe. Anyway, one of these things is wealth. Look at European societies. The richer they get, the less religious they become. The number of Turks getting richer, going abroad and discovering different lifestyles is increasing. And the second point is education. Thirty percent of all Europeans have a university degree. And you see where religion stands in daily lives of these people. Anyway, Turkey is not becoming “Islamic” in the way some people are concerned about. But people, the religious ones, tend to show this more openly, which is actually not something new, if you know Turkey well. These people are mainly from Anatolia. But their children live in a very different world, with Internet, mass media, pornography and so on. These kids who were born in big cities grow up in a rich environment and go to universities naturally will not be as religious as their parents. There is an amazing transformation in this society.
But I think you are just talking about your observations regarding İstanbul. What about Anatolia?
I would like to remind you that Turkey is one of the most urbanized countries in Europe, with 60-70 percent of its population living in big cities. On the other hand, even people living in villages watch the world via satellite, follow popular series like “Sex and the City.” I am not someone religious, but I believe in the thesis that the richer and more educated people get, the less religious they become. But I must add that people becoming more religious or wearing the headscarf in Turkey neither interests nor distresses me. I don’t see any problem with it. Nevertheless, I also see that religion in Turkey is considered like a political party, which is of course not good. The secular elite in Turkey once said: “We are the elite, we believe in democracy and in this system being religious is something bad.” And you, as an average citizen, see that things are not going well in the country and hold this elite responsible for that. And you say, “These people are elite and not religious, then I must be religious!” This is a normal reaction.
And that is the reason the elite wanted to keep religion under control?
Yes. To them, religion should not have been in the public eye so much in Turkey, where they wanted to be a part of Europe. As you know, religion’s role in daily life in Europe has become quite limited after the phases of reform, renaissance and enlightenment that lasted for centuries. [Modern Turkey’s founder Mustafa Kemal] Atatürk wanted to cover this distance overnight. But, surprisingly, it worked! I also cover Syria and I can see the huge difference between the two countries. Atatürk’s way somehow worked. But you are right in asking this question: “Today, do we need the type of secularism of the Atatürk era?” You can say: “The Turkish way of secularism has been so successful that there is no more need to keep religion under control. Let people wear whatever they want.” I would be inclined to say that the republican project in Turkey has been a success. I think there is no need to suppress society anymore, and I even tell my secular friends that they are not aware of the success they have had in Turkey. Secularism has become successful in Turkey. Now it is time to modernize it.
As far as I understand, the secularism you are talking about is the repressive one fortified by the regulations of the post-Atatürk era and therefore often criticized by Europeans. I mean we are talking about a kind of French secularism rather than the American type.
We can define secularism in two ways. The first one is that the state is neutral in regard to all religions and does not interfere in any way. People are free to practice their beliefs, which is actually what we understand from the way of Western European secularism. For example, in my country, the Netherlands, the government supports all religious schools financially. And the second way of defining it is to say: “We do not like religion. But people may be religious. Then we keep religion under control...” That is how Atatürk interpreted secularism. But I think now it is time for Turkey to move from the latter to the former.
What charmed you most when you started living in İstanbul as a reporter?
Taksim! Yes, Taksim really made me dizzy. I saw no difference between Taksim and Amsterdam. Well, of course, I know Turkey is not only Taksim, but before coming to İstanbul, unlike an average European, I had no images of “fez-wearing, camel-riding Turks” in my mind. And I really do not understand these European tourists who come to spend a few weeks in Antalya, but who, upon their return, keep talking about Turkey with the same clichés. One thinks that they do not know that Antalya is in Turkey! But, on the other hand, you Turks do not give a good image of your country. I recall that I was covering the pro-republic demonstrations in Çağlayan last year, and I was not the only foreign reporter there. They were interviewing the secularist Turks over there. One of these people said to the reporters: “Turkey must not become Iran!” Ok, well, but who in Turkey wants that to happen, anyway? Foreign reporters do not know much about Turkey. Without offering different viewpoints, they present exaggerated fears to their audience in Europe. When an average European sits at home in the evening to watch the news, he sees “a Turkey on the brink of Iranization.” Bullshit! Because this is not true. One may say, “I am against Abdullah Gül’s candidacy for presidency,” but if you make comparisons between Turkey and Iran, this is just crude propaganda. Unfortunately, most Western reporters are not informed enough about Turkey and swim in shallow waters.
After you came to Turkey, the Justice and Development Party (AK Party) came to power. As a Western reporter, you have witnessed its governing period. How do you think they are doing, especially on EU affairs?
They started well, but slowed down. I think they are a bit worried about the military and the nationalists. They must be braver. Europe and Turkey are important to each other.
What is this importance? Will you use the classic ‘bridge’ metaphor, too?
Well, if Turkey joins the EU, it will be a part of the Eurozone. The euro will be the official currency. It will help at least 10 percent more tourists come to Turkey. On the other hand, cars are produced in your country and sold to Europe. But Turks do not have any liberty to say anything about the production standards, which are only decided by those in Brussels. But once Turkey is in the EU, Turkish industrialists will have a seat at the table, too. This is not only something [purely] economic but also [involves] politics for sure. If we look at my own county again, the Netherlands, there are some political groups demanding a total ban on Muslims and immigrants entering the country. But they will never be able to cross a certain point, as the EU will not let it happen. So, in this regard, the EU functions like a regulator that activates by itself when one of the member states goes crazy. So, even if the parliament in the Netherlands passes legislation against the freedom of immigrants, the EU blocks it. You see, the EU does a good job in many ways. But politicians in Turkey and in Europe do not have enough courage. Those in Europe have to support Turkish accession with an open heart and … take a stance on TV. And the case in Turkey is not as good as it should be. Will the country be lead to nationalism or go toward Europe? This is the question. That infamous Article 301 [of the Turkish Penal Coke (TCK)] should already have been abolished. That is something slaughtering Turkey’s image. The real danger for this country in the long run is not Islamists, but nationalists. [Prime Minister Recep Tayyip] Erdoğan’s government should put it this way: “No matter whether we are Turks or not, what is important is that we are a part of humankind.” Time has changed and the world has, too. Turkey should get rid of the discourse that says, “Being a Turk is a privilege.” So, sorry to say, but this sounds a bit ridiculous at this time. But the real problem, both here and in the Netherlands, is extremists. They are afraid of everything: change, globalization and so on. Despite this fear, things are going well in the Netherlands. The economy is progressing and the unemployment rate is decreasing. Globalization plays a positive role in that, contrary to what some say. There are no migrant ghettos in the Netherlands as there are in France. The government doesn’t discriminate against anyone. No bombs explode here and there. Yes, there are a few crazy radicals, but where aren’t there? I don’t get the reason for such fear.
I recently interviewed Dutch Türkologist Erich Jan Zürcher, who said: ‘Turkey needs a real leftist and liberal party. The lack of opposition is no good for Turkey.’ Do you agree?
Yes, I do. Turkey needs such a party. The Republican People’s Party (CHP) is never something like that. [CHP leader] Deniz Baykal acts just like a dictator. If I were a Turkish leftist, I would set about starting a new party.
Has Turkey changed you?
Yes, I think I became more humanistic. I lived in Western Europe, England and America for some time. And after all this time, when I got into the daily lives of ordinary folks, I can easily say that I cannot see any difference between Turks and the Dutch. And when I look at my homeland from here, I realize that all those discussions on integration are just funny. People here and there must come together to talk on their real issues. Only then they can they see that there is actually no big gap in between. Putting all this fear of Islam and immigrants aside, people across the world just strive for a better future for themselves and their kids. There lies the only concern.
Photos: Bahar Mandan
Ali Çimen, İstanbul
29 April 2008, Tuesday
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